Episode 282: Building Muscle for Overall Health with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
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We often associate building muscle with spending lots of time at the gym. But building skeletal muscle is about more than just our strength and appearance — it actually plays a vital role in our overall wellness.
Erin sat down with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon to discuss the health benefits of skeletal muscle and how the process of strengthening our muscles impacts us. Get ready for a mindset shift from focusing on what we have to lose to instead focusing on what we have to gain!
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon is board certified in family medicine and completed a combined research and clinical fellowship in geriatrics and nutritional sciences at Washington University in St. Louis. She completed her undergraduate training in nutritional sciences at the University of Illinois. Dr. Lyon is a subject-matter expert and educator in the practical application of protein types and levels for health, performance, aging, and disease prevention. She has continued to receive mentorship from Dr. Donald Layman, Ph.D., over the course of two decades to help bring protein metabolism and nutrition from the bench to the bedside. Find out more at DrGabrielleLyon.com.
In this episode:
Why traits like discipline can help or hurt [7:13]
The importance of skeletal muscle & how it plays a role in different stages of your life [14:43]
Ways to involve the whole family in building healthy habits that last a lifetime [25:12]
The muscle-hormone connection [29:58]
How body composition goes beyond appearance & links to aging diseases [34:55]
How much protein you should eat (and when to eat it!) & Dr. Lyon’s favorite supplements [40:10]
Resources mentioned:
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon’s book, Forever Strong
Qualia Senolytic (get up to 50% off and an extra 15% off your first purchase with link + code FUNKS)
Ned Natural Remedies (get 15% off your order with code FUNK)
Kion Aminos (Get 20% off monthly orders and 10% off one time orders)
Organifi supplement powder (save 20% on your order with code FUNK)
Learn more about Metabolic Health
Related episodes:
265: Muscle Mass, Nutrition, & Training for Longevity with Liz Wolfe
266: Protein Intake & Building Muscle Mass
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Erin Holt [00:00:02]:
I'm Erin Holt, and this is the Funk'tional Nutrition Podcast, where we lean into intuitive functional medicine. We look at how diet, our environment, our emotions, and our beliefs all affect our physical health. This podcast is your full bodied, well rounded resource. I've got over a decade of clinical experience, and because of that, I've got a major bone to pick with diet culture, and the conventional healthcare model, they're both failing so many of us. But functional medicine isn't the panacea that it's made out to be either. We've got some work to do, and that's why creating a new model is my life's work. I believe in the ripple effect, so I founded the Funk'tional Nutrition Academy, a school in mentorship for practitioners who want to do the same.
Erin Holt [00:00:45]:
This show is for you if you're looking for new ways of thinking about your health and you're ready to be an active participant in your own healing, you'll get things here that you won't get other places. Please keep in mind this podcast is created for educational purposes only and should never be used as a replacement for medical diagnosis or treatment. I would love for you to follow the show rate review and share, because you never know whose life you might change and, of course, keep coming back for more. Now give me the mic so I can take it away. All right, you guys, here's the episode that I know a lot of you have been waiting for. I've got Dr. Gabrielle Lyon talking all things protein and muscle and all that good stuff.
Erin Holt [00:01:26]:
If you are not familiar with her work. Dr. Gabrielle Lyon is board certified in family medicine and completed a combined research and clinical fellowship in geriatrics and nutritional sciences at Washington University in St. Louis. She completed her undergraduate training in nutritional sciences at the University of Illinois. Dr. Lyon is a subject matter expert and educator in the practical application of protein types and levels for health performance, aging, and disease prevention. She has continued to receive mentorship from Dr.
Erin Holt [00:01:55]:
Donald Layman, PhD, over the course of two decades to help bring protein metabolism and nutrition from the bench to the bedside. And I really wanted to read, like, the full blown bio to get the point across that she kind of knows her stuff. Not only is she extraordinarily well researched and well educated, but she works with patients as well. So she's bringing the research into actual human bodies. And that's really what I always try to showcase here on this show whenever I'm interviewing people. We don't want just want the research. We don't just want theory. We also want, like, okay, how does this research and theory actually apply to people? Now, a couple of disclaimers that I want to make.
Erin Holt [00:02:37]:
At one point, I said something about vegans better not be ordering Amazon. That was a joke. I know. I'm sure I have vegan listeners. Listen, I was vegetarian for 20 years. I was vegan through some of that. So no shade. I've got nothing but love for you guys, but, you know, I'm snarky and I like to make jokes, so that was one of them.
Erin Holt [00:02:55]:
The other thing that I wanted to throw out there is that I think Dr. Gabrielle misinterpreted something that I was saying about movement and moving my body, because as you all know, I move my body, I am really active. And I think she was misinterpreting that. And so she kind of came in with a little bit of tough love. Now, I love tough love. I give it, I take it. I love that. And I really wanted to leave that part in there just in case anybody listening
Erin Holt [00:03:22]:
kind of needed that pep talk, like kick in the pants, no excuses, let's go type mentality. I also want to mention that she does have a book coming out. It's available for preorder now. "Forever Strong", which is a new science based strategy for aging well. So you can check that out. Without much further ado, here's the convo. Okay. Welcome to the show, Dr. Lyon.
Erin Holt [00:03:45]:
I'm so excited to have you here.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:03:47]:
Thanks so much for inviting me. I appreciate it.
Erin Holt [00:03:51]:
I think your name, it's fair to say, has become synonymous with two words: protein and muscle. So today we'll definitely get into both of those things because I know everybody wants to hear about that. But before we even get there, I would love to hear a little bit about your backstory, kind of like how you got here. This is what you do. How did you get here?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:04:14]:
Yeah, that's a great question. Let's just say it seems very serendipitous how I got here. I graduated high school early, and I moved in with my godmother. Do you know who Liz Lipski is?
Erin Holt [00:04:28]:
I've heard that name, yeah. I don't know her personally, obviously, but.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:04:31]:
I've heard that you might. She is one of the OGs of functional medicine, and she teaches the digestion module. She was really at the forefront, and I would say is at the forefront of functional medicine and specifically as it relates to nutrition. Fortunately, she is my godmother, and I moved in with her when I was 17, and I started to sit in with her patients and just listen, and I couldn't believe the impact that nutrition had on people's lives. So at that moment, I was totally sold. And after that, I said, okay, well, I obviously have to study nutrition because that's the way, it is the way. And then I went and did my undergraduate at the University of Illinois in nutritional sciences, vitamin, mineral, metabolism, and was lucky enough to fall into the class of a protein hero named Dr. Donald Layman.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:05:33]:
And for the listener who doesn't know who he is, he is really a world leading expert in protein metabolism, and he became a mentor over the last 20 years, and this really shaped my thinking. So from undergraduate, and this is, of course, the truncated version. As my undergraduate education progressed, I realized that ultimately, if I was going to make the big impact that I knew that the world needed as it relates to nutrition, that I felt an advanced degree would be the best way to do it, to really look at the interface between health, wellness and nutrition. The next stop was medical school. Medical school and then two years of psychiatry training and three years of family medicine. Then I circled back to do a fellowship in nutritional sciences, geriatrics with research in obesity medicine.
Erin Holt [00:06:30]:
And what does your day to day work life look like now?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:06:35]:
Well, I'm a mom of two very little children, and I have a husband who was former military and is now in his second career. He is a surgical resident, so he's an intern working about 100 hours a week. And I have a full concierge practice, so I have a full medical practice that exists right now and a podcast and a book coming out. And I educate and speak and create content.
Erin Holt [00:07:03]:
Is that it? Is that all?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:07:07]:
I'm sure I could probably think of a handful of other things, but that's it for now.
Erin Holt [00:07:13]:
As an entrepreneur fellow mother, I would love to hear kind of like, what is a typical day look like for you? Like you wake up and then what's the rest of it look like?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:07:27]:
Yeah, so I wake up, it could be around 4:45. Around 4:45. I will get up early, definitely. We're changing some things in the house regarding having a nanny. We're going to have the nanny in the afternoon. So I'll wake up early and I will train. I oftentimes try to get the kids to train with me.
Erin Holt [00:07:52]:
So what does that look like?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:07:54]:
We have a little set up in our garage, and they have little kid weights, and I have a handful of kettlebells. We do some kind of physical activity, get them ready, get them out the door, get them fed. We brush our teeth on the way and get them to school. But my day usually starts very early. Very early.
Erin Holt [00:08:11]:
Are they waking up that early or are you waking up?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:08:13]:
They wake up around between five something and six.
Erin Holt [00:08:16]:
And then you drop them off at school. How did you squeeze in writing a book with all this stuff?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:08:25]:
I have no idea. Okay, so in full disclosure, my husband was a Navy Seal for ten years, and here's what he would tell me. He would say, listen, if you really care about this stuff, you're going to wake up earlier.
Erin Holt [00:08:37]:
He's like, no bullshit.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:08:39]:
There is no negotiation. You get the job done. And that's really the truth. So I think ultimately what happens is you end up eliminating distractions. Things that are not important are really not important. And truthfully, if you are busy enough, and I use the word busy cautiously, but if you are disciplined and focused enough, there is very little room for time wasting and outside distractions. If you have significant deadlines, there is very little room for other things.
Erin Holt [00:09:13]:
Yeah, I think that's the word. I've had to renegotiate my relationship to the word discipline because for a long time I have a history of disordered eating in my teens. And so discipline was always, like I always thought about it as, like, punishment and severity and with food in particular and my body and all of that. And I've had to really look at all of the ways in which my discipline has got me really wonderful things a family, a business. I hold myself accountable to myself. I take care of myself. And so I love that you mentioned discipline in there, because it can be a really useful tool.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:09:47]:
Yeah, I want to highlight something you just said. You basically said that you have a translatable skill. And I think that that's incredibly important for anyone who is interested in health and wellness to understand that discipline and the behaviors in either one end of your life. For example, you had just mentioned that you were very disciplined with your body. Maybe it created some kind of disordered eating and exercise patterns. But what you're also saying is that you had an incredible amount of fortitude and discipline that then translated over to the capacity to build a business and all of these other things. And that is profound and important for people to understand because I could give you the perfect program, which I arguably think that I did. Right.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:10:36]:
I'm teasing, because there's many ways to skin a cat, but without a certain kind of mental framework for execution, knowing your weaknesses, understanding potentially where your future self is in regard to your present self, that doesn't matter what you get. It doesn't matter what plan you get. The execution really depends on a handful of attributes that you cultivate.
Erin Holt [00:11:00]:
That's a real great way to eradicate a lot of shame for people listening to this, because we can be so hard on ourselves. And it's like the thing that maybe can be detrimental in one arena, we could translate that over or move that over to another place, and it can be our greatest gift and greatest asset. So I love that. Are you spiritual? You were talking about a lot of synchronicities that kind of like, led the way. I'm curious if you have a spirituality practice or belief.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:11:29]:
I think that we are meant to do certain things in the world. I do. Whether you call that spiritual or not. I feel that many of us, all of us have a certain calling, and there comes a time where you have to have the chops to listen to that. So that's what I mean by synchronicities or perhaps there's definitely a more spiritual side to me. I would say yes.
Erin Holt [00:12:01]:
Yeah, I think that I'm in agreement with that in terms of my own beliefs. There's sort of a path, and when we're far from our path, there seems to be some type of force that kind of knocks us back on the path. Sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's not.
Erin Holt [00:13:57]:
Let's get into muscle a little bit.
Erin Holt [00:14:43]:
For so long, health research has really focused around obesity, adiposity, fat loss for anybody in the health wellness nutrition space. We've talked about that an awful lot, and discussion about muscle has sort of been reserved for the gym. And why is it that we've missed something so major? And why does your work focus on the importance of muscle health?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:15:07]:
Yeah, I think that we've missed it because it's exactly why you said that. When we think about skeletal muscle, it's really thought about as it relates to the gym or physical performance or looking good naked or in a bikini, whatever it is that you're wearing. But the reality is skeletal muscle is this organ of longevity. It is an organ system. It's the largest endocrine organ in the body which should make everybody pause and think to themselves, wait, I thought the thyroid gland was an organ. Skeletal muscle, which makes up 40% of your body weight, is an endocrine organ. When you contract it, it secretes myokines. Myokines are little molecules that go throughout the body.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:15:53]:
They affect the brain, they affect the bone, they affect the way in which your immune system is regulated. Skeletal muscle, the fact that skeletal muscle makes you strong and the fact that it looks good and helps with athletic performance in my opinion, is so actually low on the totem pole for what skeletal muscle is. The other statement that you made, which I think is really important, is that we've always focused on adiposity or fat. And why is this? For a few reasons. Number one, it's easy to measure, it's also easy to see. And it's also something that we know has significant metabolic effects. Being overweight or having a significant amount of obesity affects fertility, it affects cardiovascular disease, insulin resistance, diabetes, all these diseases. But where we've fallen short is that we think that obesity is actually the root cause.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:16:59]:
It's not. It's a symptom of unhealthy skeletal muscle. We've kind of gotten the whole paradigm of thinking wrong and with any way of thinking if people perpetuate it over and over and over again, it puts blinders on, it puts blinders on capacity to ask questions in a different way. And that's one reason why I think it has been so misunderstood is, number one, obviously for all the reasons I had mentioned, but also skeletal muscle is not homogeneous like fat. And what do I mean by homogeneous is that my muscle fibers are different than your muscle fibers, are different than your children's muscle fibers. So it is a bit more complex to study. But again, it is vastly underappreciated.
Erin Holt [00:17:54]:
If we made, because I think it's fair to say that a lot of people's primary goal is fat loss. If we kind of tabled that and made the goal of putting muscle or building increasing skeletal muscle on our body, would that be a worthwhile shift?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:18:14]:
It's everything. If you begin to focus on what you have to gain rather than what you have to lose in anything and in anything in life, then it becomes a way in which you can execute from a place of empowerment. It's not constantly what do you have to lose? And by focusing on what you have to lose, the messaging is reduce your total calories, exercise more, go on a yoyo diet, destroy skeletal muscle. Because that's what happens when you lose weight and you don't address the protein consumption and you don't address resistance exercise. You don't just lose fat. I mean, depending on how you do it, you can lose fat, but you also lose lean tissue. And part of that lean tissue is muscle mass. And you do this over periods of time, you do this over decades, and you destroy skeletal muscle.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:19:06]:
You literally destroy an organ to get to an endpoint of fat loss, which ultimately becomes more and more challenging because muscle is again the organ of longevity, but it is also your metabolic sink. It is the primary place for glucose disposal, the carbohydrates to eat. It is a primary site for fatty acid oxidation. It is a primary site for amino acid reservoirs. So these amino acids, if you get injured or you get sick or any number of reasons your body pulls from skeletal muscle. If you go through periods of yoyo dieting where you destroy this skeletal muscle, you destroy all the things that I mentioned. You destroy a component of your metabolism as it relates to blood sugar regulation, as it relates to fatty acid oxidation, as it relates to mitochondria function. Simply put, energy, right? Because skeletal muscle houses a ton of mitochondria, which is where you generate energy.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:20:12]:
So these are all the reasons that we think about the negative aspect of focusing on what one has to lose, like weight versus the process of actually gaining skeletal muscle. The process of gaining skeletal muscle allows you number one, it transforms you. So there is a transformation that happens internally because it is a currency that you have to earn. You can't be born into it, you can't bargain for it, you can't sell it. It is a metabolic currency, but it is a currency that requires resilience, requires things. And so what I find clinically is when we shift the focus from what an individual has to lose versus what an individual has to gain, they improve exponentially in health, but they also transform exponentially as a human. And that's what a real win looks like.
Erin Holt [00:21:12]:
You say that it requires resiliency or resilience. It can also, in my experience, give you the same. It can give you that back to you. The past maybe two years I have focused more on building muscle as a strategy for health, largely due to following your work. And that is the biggest thing that I've noticed. Yes, body composition shifts and changes and rearranges, but it's like this resilience that I feel that I haven't felt in the past. As somebody who has struggled with autoimmunity in the past, when you started talking about muscle and immune health, I'm like, okay, now I'm in. Now I'm really listening.
Erin Holt [00:21:56]:
Now I'm really paying attention. That was my gateway. And I'm like, if there's something that I can do to improve my immune system and my just overall robustness, I am all in. And I would love to hear you talk more about the immune system and immune health. But also, I guess this is like a two question thing. For a long time, I would say I'm not somebody who puts on muscle mass easily. My body just doesn't do that. And I had to first of all, stop saying that because the more I say something, of course, the more I'm going to see it in my reality.
Erin Holt [00:22:28]:
But I do have to kind of work for that. Are there different body types or is there different genetics that kind of lend itself to putting on muscle or not?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:22:40]:
I do believe that there is a genetic ceiling. I think that we all have witnessed that some people can put on muscle very easily, others, not so much. However, having an extremely well executed plan, I believe takes care of that. Because again, the end result isn't necessarily about how much muscle. I can't tell you how much muscle would be ideal for you, which is shocking. I can't tell my neighbor or my mom how much muscle that she should have to live optimally. So regardless of the amount that someone puts on and it'll vary. So if you are an untrained individual and you start doing some kind of resistance exercise, typically men put on double the amount of mass, but a woman could put on, let's say, easily if she's untrained and she has everything right.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:23:34]:
A pound a month, right? And again, these numbers vary by age, hormonal status, training status, nutrition. But it's safe to say that typically men can put on twice as much and women still can always be putting on mass. And again, you might be a hard gainer and that is totally okay. But the other thing that I would love to tell you is that the health of skeletal muscle isn't just about that aspect of hypertrophy, the actual accretion of putting on mass, but it's the exercise itself that creates a flux. Exercising muscle is utilizing substrates. So if you think of muscle like a suitcase, and if you are overeating and under exercising, you're constantly stuffing that suitcase. And if that suitcase is full of carbohydrates, it will eventually spill back into the bloodstream. Your muscle you can think of is the same way that you exercise skeletal muscle to empty that proverbial suitcase.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:24:41]:
And it's that flux and that changeover of substrate that really helps with the health of skeletal muscle. There is no such thing as a healthy sedentary person. There's no such thing.
Erin Holt [00:24:58]:
So that's helpful to hear. So it's not just like how swole you are.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:25:02]:
I mean, that helps. You can be jacked and tan and that's awesome.
Erin Holt [00:25:07]:
I'm doing my best over here.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:25:09]:
Okay, come on.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:25:12]:
How many kids do you have?
Erin Holt [00:25:13]:
One girl.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:25:14]:
Get it? How old?
Erin Holt [00:25:16]:
She's nine. Oh, I have like literally no excuse.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:25:19]:
How old is your child?
Erin Holt [00:25:20]:
She's nine.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:25:21]:
Nine years old?
Erin Holt [00:25:23]:
Yeah.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:25:23]:
Okay, so then you guys should be when we think about muscle health and we think about body composition and regulating immunity and fertility and these kinds of things, that children should also be lifting weights. And that is not really spoken about because for the longest time there was this thought process that women or that children shouldn't be lifting because it will stunt their growth. But that's not true. You can do body weight exercises. You can be extremely physically active and do some kind of low, heavier load, like a lower load, and do resistance training.
Erin Holt [00:26:01]:
So we have those ring pulls. I look at her, I'm like, your back is jacked because she does a lot of upper body stuff. She plays soccer, but that's an interesting thing to break because she likes to work out with me because I just do it in the house and I have like two pound weights dumbbells that she'll pick up and throw around. But for folks who are listening, who are parents and their interest is piqued, how would you strategize this with your kid? Would you do it in the exact way you're doing? Which is they just have weights and moms working out and kiddos are there with some dumbbells.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:26:38]:
Yeah, so we have dumbbells. We have the foam dumbbells. And I was just thinking about this, that they see what you do, and for any mom listening or any practitioner listening, if we can get to our kids early, which, by the way, this is why nutrition is so important in the messages and the narratives that come through on nutrition. When you think about the influence that you have on your child's health and wellness, it really can go one of two ways. And I hate to be binary, but I'm going to just be binary for this kind of conversation is that if you do not exercise and train in front of your child and you are stuck on your phone and doing all of those things, then that is one way that your child is going to navigate the world and feel as if that's normal. That is going to be devastating for their health period. The other way is to incorporate physical activity in everything that you do, which is what we do. Again, the kids go on the treadmill.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:27:42]:
I know people are like, oh my gosh, that's so unsafe. No, we have it set up so it's safe. We have a rubber band set up for them. We have ways in which they can do what we are doing and that we do it as a family. And I do think that that is very critical. It's a critical component to the overall health of the family unit. Because again, we don't exist as individuals. We exist as a family unit.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:28:08]:
And that becomes really critical, especially thinking long term. It's much easier to deposit strong muscle and strong bone when you're younger because as we age, we go through these periods that are called catabolic crises. Oftentimes in the longevity space, people talk about aging as if it's a linear thing. Oop, I hit 40 and now this happened or I'm going to have a slow, steady decline in health. Quite frankly, that's not the way it happens. The way in which we age is not linear. And in fact, we go through these moments of catabolic crises. And what does that mean? That means, for example, if an older person goes on bed rest, which is the number one treatment of choice when people go into the hospital, or if you get the flu or if you break a limb or, I don't know, X, Y and Z, people rest.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:29:04]:
They don't get out and move. Obviously they're not feeling well, whatever it is. But an older adult will lose in one week what it would take a younger adult to lose in 30 days.
Erin Holt [00:29:21]:
Whoa. What does older mean? What's the threshold for older?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:29:24]:
Question in the literature, it's 65, but I would argue that it's not 65 yet. It's no longer 65. 65 in the literature is really the cut off for an older adult. But when it comes to muscle health, muscle health can decline much younger than that. I frankly believe in your 30s.
Erin Holt [00:29:46]:
God, that's not good. So we have to be working on it. We have to be actively working on this. You had mentioned hormonal status, too. And could you talk a little bit more about the hormone muscle connection? Are there certain hormones that help us build muscle, retain muscle?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:30:07]:
Well, everybody talks about the hormone testosterone as its anabolic properties. I think that that's pretty well received and understood that testosterone can increase and that can increase muscle mass and strength. Of course, someone has to be training. You don't just take testosterone and all of a sudden you're going to become buff. The other hormones, progesterone and estrogen or estrogens, they may have some impact. I think that there's some variation in the literature, but there is some impact, obviously, as it relates to skeletal muscle health. And certainly tendons, tendon turnover, ligament health with some of the female steroid hormones like estrogen. Well, I mean, I suppose estrogen is male and female, but typically thought of as the female and male hormones.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:30:59]:
So testosterone definitely estrogen, progesterone varying degrees of impact on skeletal muscle health. And I say varying degrees of influence because for a provider out there, you don't typically start a woman on estrogen and progesterone and see changes in her muscle mass. It's just not typical. But if you were to add in some kind of testosterone therapy, you do see improvements in muscle mass, assuming that they're training appropriately. But I also want to mention cortisol. Cortisol has a catabolic influence in the body, meaning that it has the potential to really negatively affect muscle health as it relates to breakdown. So there's protein synthesis, which is the building, and then there's protein breakdown or protein degradation. And ultimately muscle health, among other things, is this balance between protein synthesis and protein degradation.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:32:04]:
Cortisol has the opposite effect, so it really skews the needle towards breakdown. So if an individual is in a sleep deprived state where potentially cortisol is high, you're also going to have influence on blood sugar. Perhaps blood sugar regulation is off. Glucose levels are high. Insulin levels are then going to be subsequently high. This hormonal milieu can change the dynamic of the health of skeletal muscle. So having lower levels of cortisol and more optimal levels of other hormones is obviously more beneficial.
Erin Holt [00:32:42]:
And you had mentioned earlier that muscle is an endocrine organ. So through moving your body, through moving skeletal muscle, through putting on skeletal muscle, does that also impact your hormones?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:32:58]:
I would say that hormonal regulation, does it impact your hormones? Yes, it does. But to the degree at which it impacts your hormones, I think we should think about this from a few different lenses. Is a woman going to regain her hormonal status because she's lifting weights if she has gone through menopause? No, she's not. It's not going to happen. Women are going to go through menopause. There's no amount of weightlifting that is going to stop the natural progression. So I think that that's really important to understand as it relates to testosterone. Can lifting weights improve testosterone? Yes, it can.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:33:44]:
But to the degree at which it does, I can't say for sure that that's a major influence. Right. Because there's also this discussion of exercise and growth hormone. Does exercise promote growth hormone? Yes, but it's local and transient. So again, it's not this just do this and get this. It truly is. If you want to have intelligent muscle health, it becomes this comprehensive thought process and a comprehensive plan. So those are some of the things that I think about when I think about really the influence.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:34:24]:
I think it's important not to overstate the influence of hormones, and obviously it's important not to understate the influence of hormones. And then I think from a practical aspect, the next question becomes is could someone still have a great body and not be on hormone replacement? Right? Moms are probably thinking that, and I would say yes, absolutely. That there are people that do not take hormone replacement therapy and still stay very fit and lean. But I will say one more thing is the better your body composition, the chances are the better your fertility overall will be.
Erin Holt [00:35:05]:
Can you define better composition?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:35:09]:
Yes. So in the literature, again, we talk about body fat percentage. We don't necessarily talk about muscle mass percentage. We know that individuals above 30% body fat, that's not great as it relates to muscle mass, again, we have strong definitions as it relates to sarcopenia or cachexia, which is muscle wasting or decreased muscle mass and function. But thinking about body fat percentage, again, depends on fertility. But 30% or more is not a good spot. The leaner an individual is within a certain number. Again, everybody is different.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:35:47]:
So for example, I tend to genetically be a leaner individual. I have friends who easily sit at 25% body fat and are doing great. Their numbers look great, they're strong they're fit. There is some variability depending on the person.
Erin Holt [00:36:05]:
And I just want to underscore that when you use the term better, you're really referring to health based on the medical literature. This isn't an aesthetic thing that we're talking.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:36:16]:
This has nothing to do with aesthetics. This is how is your blood sugar regulation, how's your blood sugar regulation? What do your triglycerides look like? What is your fasting insulin? Are you strong? Are you sleeping through the night? You're not getting these ebbs and flows in blood sugar. So that's what I'm talking about. And how are we looking at blood metrics and then physical metrics as it relates to skeletal muscle health? I mean, I don't really care how anybody looks, and frankly, you shouldn't necessarily either, because again, the conversation is, what do we have to gain versus what do we have to lose? But in my book, I talk a lot about how skeletal muscle plays a role in its impact on fertility. Obesity definitely negatively impacts fertility. PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome, these are issues with obesity, issues with insulin sensitivity. All of this plays a role in impacting fertility and metabolism. And what's so amazing about these things is you can leverage skeletal muscle health to be able to move the needle.
Erin Holt [00:37:25]:
And this is why you say all diseases of aging are issues in the muscle first.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:37:29]:
Yes, because where does it start? It has to start somewhere. And obviously, obesity and diseases of aging are very complex. Is it a mitochondrial issue within skeletal muscle? Is it insulin resistance? Is it not being able to keep up with reactive oxygen species? There's all kinds of things. But at the end of the day, if we know that 40% of the body is skeletal muscle, this likely plays the largest influence as it relates to health and wellness.
Erin Holt [00:39:43]:
And I just think with modern day world, we can get so overwhelmed by there's so many things that are really beyond our control and we can get really hyper vigilant about thinking about those things air quality and mold exposure. And to some extent, we're just living in the world and doing the best we can. But there are so many things that are actually within our control, and this is one of those things.
Erin Holt [00:40:31]:
This is a lever that we can move around.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:40:34]:
Totally agree with you. What is the one thing that 100% of people do? Aside from breathe and like pick your nose? What is it? It's eat. 100% of people eat. It is the longest relationship you will ever have with anything. Longer than your parents, longer than your spouse, longer than your children. You have to eat. It is the longest relationship you will ever have with any relationship. Sometimes things are good, sometimes you go through a breakup, sometimes things are amazing or whatever it is.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:41:10]:
But if 100% of people eat, then you have to get that right, or you have to at least try to get that right. Because you could go your entire life without exercise. Totally don't recommend doing that, but one could. But you cannot go your entire life without eating. So you have to nail the food component of health and wellness. And there's a lot of confusion in this space and I would love to clear that up for people. Because for whatever reason, nutrition is incredibly controversial. I have been studying nutrition in some capacity for the last 20 years, not just in clinical practice, but also seven years professionally.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:41:54]:
So seven years of some kind of nutritional science education. And it was not as controversial or as fiery as it is now. With emotion typically comes bad decisions, right? No one is like, oh, I am so emotional now, I definitely am going to make a good decision. Right? I mean, it's kind of like not how that happens. The same thing happens, I think, with nutrition. There's difference between feeling very passionate about nutrition versus having an extreme emotional connection to the information provided. And when I think about dietary protein, I think two things. Number one, people go crazy about it, right? They're like so offended.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:42:45]:
And number two, the actual guidelines for dietary protein have not changed since 1968 was the last time we updated it. 1968. That's insanity. So it means one of two things. Means, number one, we haven't made any new science discoveries since that time regarding dietary protein. Or number two, perhaps dietary protein is deeply underappreciated in its role in human health and its potential for impact. So dietary protein is the most important macronutrient, especially when we are talking about muscle health.
Erin Holt [00:43:26]:
Why do you think people get so up in arms and hot and bothered and big mad about it?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:43:33]:
A few reasons. People truly want to. I believe people want to do the right thing. And for whatever reason, dietary protein seems to pull a morality lever for people whether they believe a false narrative about agriculture and greenhouse gas, which by the way, in the US. The majority of greenhouse gas and issues of that nature are really driven by transportation and electricity, not by animal agriculture. Roughly 9% of all agriculture is contributed. So out of all of greenhouse gas, 9% is agriculture. And that includes fruits and vegetables and all kinds of things versus 80 some percent is electricity, transportation and industry use in transportation.
Erin Holt [00:44:25]:
Are we talking like planes, trains, automobiles, all that?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:44:28]:
Yeah. So if you could go vegan for two years and take one transatlantic flight and it equals the same thing.
Erin Holt [00:44:41]:
I hope those vegans aren't ordering Amazon.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:44:44]:
I agree with you. That is a really good point. So you asked why do I think protein is so controversial in that way? Is that it pulls on this morality lever. That is a huge mistake. Right. We can't blame our sins or our utilization of resources on a cow. Right. To me that's a smokescreen. The other aspect is there's two other aspects to this.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:45:13]:
People are convinced that protein for some reason or animal based protein is bad for their health, which the evidence doesn't support that and the evidence has not supported that in the literature. And I think that the final component to why protein is so controversial is that it has a face and that can be emotional for people.
Erin Holt [00:45:39]:
Yeah. People are still asking about protein intake in kidneys.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:45:43]:
Are they really?
Erin Holt [00:45:45]:
Yeah. Isn't it bad for your kidneys?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:45:48]:
Right? No. And there's been multiple metaanalyses, which a metaanalysis takes a bunch of studies and looks at it and gives you information. So it's not just pulling from one study or two studies. It's typically a handful of quality studies, at least you hope, and then a metaanalysis would be produced. So no, protein does not negatively affect healthy kidney function for a healthy individual. So that has also been disproven so long ago. And look at this. Cholesterol was taken the dietary intake of cholesterol was taken out of the guidelines in 2015, but yet we still hear people talk about dietary cholesterol and how you shouldn't eat that.
Erin Holt [00:46:40]:
Do you think, in your opinion, and based on what you've seen since you've been studying nutrition, essentially since you're 17 years old, do you think it's possible to meet our protein needs for health without consuming animal protein?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:47:01]:
I think it I mean, are we talking about just eating plant based?
Erin Holt [00:47:10]:
I mean, I think you can eat plant based and still eat animals. So, yeah, doing it as a vegetarian or a vegan.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:47:19]:
I think that it can be done from a macronutrient perspective. I think that there's multiple ways to design a diet. Do I think that it is ideal, and do I think it's what we should give our children, considering many children are deficient in iron and some of these nutrients? No, I don't. In addition, I think that the evidence would support and will continue to support that the lower your total protein intake, that at least 50% should come from animal sources.
Erin Holt [00:47:59]:
How would you help somebody strategize protein intake? And of course, the book is coming out and absolutely recommend buying the book and reading through the book to expand on everything that we're talking about in today's show. But how would you recommend somebody strategize their protein intake, especially if they feel like they're struggling to get in their protein needs?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:48:20]:
Well, I think, number one, determining where you are, how much protein are you actually getting in? So knowledge is really important. How much do you actually have? Once you determine how much you actually have, then you can strategize where you need to go. I think it is very simple to think about eating whole foods. That is the best source of protein. Could you get it from shakes or drinks? You can, but I would love for people to prioritize some kind of high nutrient dense protein food, whether it is lean beef or chicken or oysters. Choose whatever it is that you want. But from a strategy perspective, having a protein forward diet, that first meal of the day is really critical, and that could be between 30 and 50 grams. And then that last meal of the day being critical before you're going into an overnight fast.
Erin Holt [00:49:14]:
So you're waking up 4:45 in the morning some mornings or most mornings, and then you're exercising. Do you eat anything before you work out?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:49:24]:
No, I'm just not hungry.
Erin Holt [00:49:26]:
So you'll do your breakfast post workout. What does your breakfast look like to start?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:49:32]:
So this morning we had frittatas. We had eggs with some turkey in it and some spinach and mushrooms.
Erin Holt [00:49:41]:
Awesome. Okay.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:49:42]:
Easy. Nothing complicated.
Erin Holt [00:49:44]:
Yeah.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:49:45]:
No.
Erin Holt [00:49:45]:
How important do you think it is that we get really specific and refined about pre and post workout nutrition? Because some people really dial that in. Do you think that's necessary, or is it more about moving your body and making sure you get adequate protein throughout the day?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:50:02]:
Well, the evidence would not support that meal timing is important as it relates to exercise. So if you are an average person and you're interested in nutrition, I would refer people to there's an International Society for Sports Nutrition, and they did a great they've done a handful of papers that are just really, really great about macronutrient timing. And you have to understand that what you're eating in a 24 hours period is going to be most important. So your protein intake in a 24 hours period is going to be most valuable. And that should be around 1 gram - so if the RDA is set at 0.8 grams per kg, that's .37 grams per pound. So what does that mean? That means if you're 115 pounds and you multiply that by the RDA, that will give you around 45 grams of dietary protein.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:50:55]:
So if you were to do the calculation this is ridiculous. Now, a more optimal way would be looking at 0.7 to 1 gram per pound ideal body weight. I really don't care. As long as you're getting it in, that's great. Within a 24 hours period, that is the first rung on the hierarchy. Are there other ways to do it that is potentially more effective? Like dosing it between 30 and 50 grams in the morning and then 30 and 50 grams in the evening. So that you're having a different kind of distribution, I think is valuable for the standpoint of managing blood sugar, managing hunger, muscle, protein synthesis from this aspect of what is perhaps more optimal for body composition, because you're eating more than protein.
Erin Holt [00:51:45]:
I think that takes a lot of pressure off of people to get it exactly right. All right, final question. If you're going on vacation and you can only take three supplements, what are you packing and why?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:51:57]:
Oh, three supplements. This is easy. Okay, so have you heard of Urolithin A?
Erin Holt [00:52:02]:
No.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:52:02]:
Are you serious? So Urolithin A, there's a company called Mitopure, and they make Urolithin A. Urolithin A is incredible. So Urolithin A is made in the gut microbiome, and only 40% of people can actually make it. So it's actually made, so it takes some of these ellagitannins, these compounds from pomegranate walnut, and it converts it to Urolithin A if you have the capacity. What is so incredible about Urolithin A is that it actually impacts mitochondria and it improves mitochondrial function and it improves mitophagy. So we talk about muscle health and everybody talks about creatine, which I love creatine, and I use First Forms creatine, I love it. But the other aspects of muscle health include mitochondria and energy above and beyond creatine and protein. So if I'm going away and I'm packing, what I get five supplements?
Erin Holt [00:53:03]:
I said three, but go ahead.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:53:04]:
No, I don't need five. So Mitopure's Urolithin, A, and I use 500 milligrams twice a day.
Erin Holt [00:53:12]:
Okay.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:53:13]:
There is so much science in randomized control trials, placebo, double blinded trials. This compound has incredible science. So, number one, is there evidence to support it? So there's that. I also think a fish oil is really important for omega three fatty acids. That's super important. Vitamin D, a lot of people don't convert it. So those would be my top three.
Erin Holt [00:53:37]:
Okay.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:53:38]:
And then if you wanted to get crazy, I would say creatine. And potentially for me, I would use a nootropic. So I use a company called Thesis, and there's all different kinds of blends that are incredible. It has mushrooms, so I'm kind of cheating because it's not a one single thing. It has, like, alpha GPC in it and caffeine and altheanine. But that's really, like, my go to. And these are supplements I use every day.
Erin Holt [00:54:04]:
Last question. Really for real this time. How do you use creatine? How do you dose that?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:54:09]:
5 grams. Just 5 grams. And I typically just do it five days a week.
Erin Holt [00:54:15]:
Okay, cool.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:54:16]:
And I play around with it. Sometimes I'm taking it, sometimes I'm not. It depends on how much, you know, if I'm eating a lot of red meat that week or that month. And I don't necessarily need to take as much creatine. Right. But if, say, I'm eating really light and I'm eating more fish this month because maybe we're going to California or wherever we are, then that will be a month I added in.
Erin Holt [00:54:39]:
Okay, awesome. Thank you so much. Can you tell folks where they can find more of you and your work?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:54:46]:
Yes. So, first of all, I'm so grateful for anyone who is still listening to this podcast. I cannot share or spread this message without you. And this is a team effort, hence the name Forever Strong. Forever Strong is really about community and what is it that we are together. So in my mind, you can find me on my website, drgabriellelyon.com. I have workout videos that go with this book, Forever Strong.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:55:16]:
By the way, it took two years to write. Look at that. Yes. I have a great podcast if people are interested in science or just incredible stories. The Dr. Gabrielle Lyon show. I'm very active on Instagram and Twitter. We have a recipe list.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:55:33]:
We have a newsletter, all kinds of things.
Erin Holt [00:55:37]:
Awesome. We'll link all the goodies up in the show notes, too. Thank you so much for taking the time to come chat with us.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:55:42]:
Thank you so much.
Erin Holt [00:55:43]:
You're the best.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon [00:55:44]:
Thank you.
Erin Holt [00:55:50]:
Thanks for joining me for this episode of the Funk'tional Nutrition podcast. If you got something from today's show, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, share with a friend, and keep coming back for more. Take care of you.
